Comments on: Buddhism and Empire I: a soldier’s prayer http://earlytibet.com/2007/08/08/buddhism-and-empire-i/ Notes, thoughts and fragments of research on the history of Tibet Fri, 23 Jul 2010 14:21:15 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.com/ By: Dan http://earlytibet.com/2007/08/08/buddhism-and-empire-i/#comment-1576 Dan Sun, 04 Apr 2010 09:06:04 +0000 http://earlytibet.com/2007/08/08/buddhism-and-empire-i/#comment-1576 Hamlet: Do you see yonder cloud that's almost in shape of a camel? Polonius: By th' Mass, and 'tis like a camel, indeed. Hamlet: Methinks it is like a weasel. Polonius: It is backed like a weasel. Hamlet: Or like a whale. Polonius: Very like a whale. Hamlet: Do you see yonder cloud that’s almost in shape of a camel?
Polonius: By th’ Mass, and ’tis like a camel, indeed.
Hamlet: Methinks it is like a weasel.
Polonius: It is backed like a weasel.
Hamlet: Or like a whale.
Polonius: Very like a whale.

]]> By: Dab http://earlytibet.com/2007/08/08/buddhism-and-empire-i/#comment-21 Dab Fri, 10 Aug 2007 18:35:10 +0000 http://earlytibet.com/2007/08/08/buddhism-and-empire-i/#comment-21 Just √ed with Hobson-Jobson (p. 596, under the spelling "Mungoose" and see there that there are several "Upper Indian" names for the creature, including neola & nyaul, which are quite close to the Tibetan ne'u-le. I guess my point is just that neither Tibetan name for mongoose is likely to be natively Tibeto-Burman, but rather borrowed from Indian languages. (But true, not explaining the sre in sre-mong...) Dab Just √ed with Hobson-Jobson (p. 596, under the spelling “Mungoose” and see there that there are several “Upper Indian” names for the creature, including neola & nyaul, which are quite close to the Tibetan ne’u-le.

I guess my point is just that neither Tibetan name for mongoose is likely to be natively Tibeto-Burman, but rather borrowed from Indian languages. (But true, not explaining the sre in sre-mong…)

Dab

]]> By: Dab http://earlytibet.com/2007/08/08/buddhism-and-empire-i/#comment-20 Dab Fri, 10 Aug 2007 18:28:01 +0000 http://earlytibet.com/2007/08/08/buddhism-and-empire-i/#comment-20 I think you're right that it's not an absolutely definite otter. I've never seen otters in the wild, although I have seem weasels (they whip like snakes so fast through the grass that you hardly get a glimpse before they're gone), and even once a badger close up. We need the judgment of a real mammal expert. Aren't the weasel and otter supposed to be closely related animals? The mongoose? Do they really live on the plateau? I think Tib. ne'u-le is close to the north Indian names coming from Sanskrit nakula, while the English word mongoose comes from a S. Indian language, probably Telugu. Not sure how to explain Tib. sre-mong, but isn't it curious that the "mong" of mong-oose is in there? Hmm. Never thought of that before. Dab I think you’re right that it’s not an absolutely definite otter. I’ve never seen otters in the wild, although I have seem weasels (they whip like snakes so fast through the grass that you hardly get a glimpse before they’re gone), and even once a badger close up.

We need the judgment of a real mammal expert. Aren’t the weasel and otter supposed to be closely related animals?

The mongoose? Do they really live on the plateau? I think Tib. ne’u-le is close to the north Indian names coming from Sanskrit nakula, while the English word mongoose comes from a S. Indian language, probably Telugu.

Not sure how to explain Tib. sre-mong, but isn’t it curious that the “mong” of mong-oose is in there? Hmm. Never thought of that before.

Dab

]]> By: earlytibet http://earlytibet.com/2007/08/08/buddhism-and-empire-i/#comment-19 earlytibet Fri, 10 Aug 2007 08:59:37 +0000 http://earlytibet.com/2007/08/08/buddhism-and-empire-i/#comment-19 Anyway, I wonder if our drawing is not closer to the shape of the weasel or mongoose. As the Columbia Encyclopedia says: "Members of this family are generally characterized by long bodies and necks, short legs, small rounded ears, and medium to long tails." While the otter's (and marmot's) hindquarters and tail are bulkier. Several weasel species are found in Central Asia--have a look at the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weasel" rel="nofollow">Wikipedia entry</a> and a nice drawing <a href="http://www.m-w.com/mw/art/weasel.gif" rel="nofollow">here</a>. And as for the mongoose (<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Mongoose" rel="nofollow">Small Asian Mongoose</a>), have a look at this <a href="http://www.emagazine.com/images/0502feat2_mongoose.jpg" rel="nofollow">image</a>. The mongoose (ne'u le / sre mong) is also a significant beast in Indo-Tibetan iconography. Anyway, I wonder if our drawing is not closer to the shape of the weasel or mongoose. As the Columbia Encyclopedia says: “Members of this family are generally characterized by long bodies and necks, short legs, small rounded ears, and medium to long tails.” While the otter’s (and marmot’s) hindquarters and tail are bulkier. Several weasel species are found in Central Asia–have a look at the Wikipedia entry and a nice drawing here. And as for the mongoose (Small Asian Mongoose), have a look at this image. The mongoose (ne’u le / sre mong) is also a significant beast in Indo-Tibetan iconography.

]]> By: earlytibet http://earlytibet.com/2007/08/08/buddhism-and-empire-i/#comment-18 earlytibet Fri, 10 Aug 2007 08:55:43 +0000 http://earlytibet.com/2007/08/08/buddhism-and-empire-i/#comment-18 Otter is 獺 (ta) in Chinese. Obviously not very similar sounding to the Tibetan <em>sram</em> though the medieval pronounciation may have been quite different (I'll ask a Sinologist friend about this). Otter is 獺 (ta) in Chinese. Obviously not very similar sounding to the Tibetan sram though the medieval pronounciation may have been quite different (I’ll ask a Sinologist friend about this).

]]> By: Dab http://earlytibet.com/2007/08/08/buddhism-and-empire-i/#comment-17 Dab Fri, 10 Aug 2007 08:24:43 +0000 http://earlytibet.com/2007/08/08/buddhism-and-empire-i/#comment-17 Was just thinking that there seems to be enough evidence to demonstrate that the word sram for otter goes back deeply into the Tibeto-Burman language history. There are some examples in Stephan Beyer's <em>Classical Tibetan Language</em>, p. 86. Do you know how to say otter in Chinese? There is a very nice but difficult to read story about an owl and an otter in the longer Khepa Deu history (can't find it at the moment), that was also known to the early Kadampa teachers. It might be relevant to the general early Tibetan mental associations evoked by otters, I don't know. Sometimes otters are depicted in Tibetan art as rather fantastic creatures with fish-like heads [gills, fins...] (can't think of any traditional examples right now, although there are several drawn by Robert Beer in his book <em>Encyclopedia of Tibetan Symbols & Motifs</em>, p. 74). What fun this is. Dab Was just thinking that there seems to be enough evidence to demonstrate that the word sram for otter goes back deeply into the Tibeto-Burman language history. There are some examples in Stephan Beyer’s Classical Tibetan Language, p. 86. Do you know how to say otter in Chinese?

There is a very nice but difficult to read story about an owl and an otter in the longer Khepa Deu history (can’t find it at the moment), that was also known to the early Kadampa teachers. It might be relevant to the general early Tibetan mental associations evoked by otters, I don’t know.

Sometimes otters are depicted in Tibetan art as rather fantastic creatures with fish-like heads [gills, fins...] (can’t think of any traditional examples right now, although there are several drawn by Robert Beer in his book Encyclopedia of Tibetan Symbols & Motifs, p. 74).

What fun this is.

Dab

]]> By: Dab http://earlytibet.com/2007/08/08/buddhism-and-empire-i/#comment-16 Dab Fri, 10 Aug 2007 07:59:00 +0000 http://earlytibet.com/2007/08/08/buddhism-and-empire-i/#comment-16 There are some video links on the Wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oriental_Small-clawed_Otter There is *truly* something close to a characteristic stance of an otter (when it's standing on land) in the Old Tibetan drawing... You might wish that the head were held a little higher so you could see a more graceful slope in the neck. But I still think it's an otter. Dab There are some video links on the Wikipedia page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oriental_Small-clawed_Otter

There is *truly* something close to a characteristic stance of an otter (when it’s standing on land) in the Old Tibetan drawing… You might wish that the head were held a little higher so you could see a more graceful slope in the neck. But I still think it’s an otter.

Dab

]]> By: earlytibet http://earlytibet.com/2007/08/08/buddhism-and-empire-i/#comment-15 earlytibet Thu, 09 Aug 2007 15:09:58 +0000 http://earlytibet.com/2007/08/08/buddhism-and-empire-i/#comment-15 Ah, the Oriental Small Clawed Otter (Aonyx cinerea) no less. Here's an <a href="http://www.otternet.com/galleries/smalclaw/" rel="nofollow"> image gallery</a> with some nice pictures for comparison! Ah, the Oriental Small Clawed Otter (Aonyx cinerea) no less. Here’s an image gallery with some nice pictures for comparison!

]]> By: Dab http://earlytibet.com/2007/08/08/buddhism-and-empire-i/#comment-13 Dab Wed, 08 Aug 2007 17:33:33 +0000 http://earlytibet.com/2007/08/08/buddhism-and-empire-i/#comment-13 I think it might be a chu-sram, an otter. Hard to be sure. Dab I think it might be a chu-sram, an otter. Hard to be sure.

Dab

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