Excellent blog by the way, I’m glad I found it. I have a blog on generally anything to do with Tibet. I’m a history undergrad major so I try to post a few posts on Tibetan history but I don’t have the resources and expertise that you have.

Actually, I think ‘snang shi’ probably refers to Sba Gsal snang and Sba Sang shi as a pair, since these two are both said to have come to the Chinese emperor as bodhisattvas (see p.49 of the Wangdu and Diemberger translation of the Dba bzhed).

Anyway I’ll translate that passage and write a bit more about it in the next few days as a new post.

You’re awake early this morning.

There is one bit in your Tibetan source, apparently, that needs fixing in order for it to be intelligible.

Instead of the phrase: snang shi rgya nag du chos len par btang dus..

it has to read (regardless of what your text says): sang shi rgya nag du chos len par btang dus…

‘When [Ba] Sangshi was sent to accept Dharma [texts] in China…’

Otherwise it’s perfectly clear, especially the last part where historian Pawo Rinpoche recognizes, contrary to Butön, that the emperor ‘very obviously’ means ‘Tibet’ when he says Red-Face-Having Country…

Maybe you’ll get time to translate it tomorrow morning bright and early?

Cheers,
Dab

// bod du chos byung ba ni lha mo dri ma med pa’i ‘od lung bstan pa’i mdor / lo stong dang lnga brgya na dam pa’i chos gdong dmar can gyi yul zhes pa bod du ‘byung bar bshad pas dus mi mtshungs par snang mod / dza’i khang thog nas mi snang bar gyur pa dag pa’i zhing du gnas nas phyis bod tu babs pa lta bu la ni ‘gal ba med to // bod du chos ‘byung tshul ‘di la’ang lo gnyis stong lnga brgya zhes zer ba mang bar snang yang stong dang lnga brgyar ‘chad pa rnams ‘grig par snang zhing ‘di ni chos rgyal khri srong lde btsan gyi dus la dgongs so // kun mkhyen bus rba bzhed nas gdong dmar can gyi yul rgya nag la bshad gsungs kyang rba bzhed na snang shi rgya nag du chos len par btang dus ju zhag mkhan mkhas pas byang chub sems dpa’i sprul pa byad ‘di ‘dra ba pho nyar ‘ong zhes ‘bag byas nas sleb pa’i tshe rgyal pos bya dga’ cher byin / gdong dmar can gyi yul du chos kyi khungs ‘byin pa’i byang chub sems dpa’ ‘byung bar lung bstan pa de khyod yin nges ces chos bam po stong tsam bskur zhes gdong dmar can gyi yul bod la ngos bzung ba ches gsal por yod to //

Surprise, another small postscript wrinkle. I think you’re probably right that Sönam Tsemo’s history was the first, but then it was very soon followed by Nyangral, Khepa Deu and Butön. When you look at Butön (Öbermiller’s English translation, pp. 105 & 108), you find yet another very interesting identification of the Country of Red Faces:

rba bzhed nas gdong dmar gyi yul rgya bshad do //

Or, as Öbermiller rather fairly translates it, “According to the opinion of Rba, ‘the country of the red-faced’ means China.”

Hmmm. A more accurate translation would be something like, “Country of Red-Face[s] is explained in the Bazhé to mean China.”

I’m 95% sure nothing like this quote occurs in the Stein or Mgon-po-rgyal-mtshan editions of the Bazhé (Sba-bzhed).

But have a look at the more recently published Wazhé (Dba’-bzhed), the translation & facsimile by Wangdu & Diemberger, folio 10 verso. Their English translation is on p. 51: “The Buddha prophesied that a spiritual master for the practice of the holy doctrine would appear in a time close to the last [period of] 500 years in the country of the Red-faced.”

{{((The footnote no. 135 here gives a reference to our prophecy as found the history by Nyangral, which would only be a few decades later than Sönam Tsemo’s history… Here in the Wazhé you can see how Butön could have gotten the impression that Red-faced country means China. But if you read carefully you will see that the words of the prophecy are being quoted by none other than the Chinese emperor of the time (8th century), addressing himself to his Tibetan visitor Ba Salnang (Sba Gsal-snang). I’m fairly certain that the emperor, in quoting the prophecy, is taking Red-Faces to mean Tibet, not China, since anyway Ba is about to return to Tibet.))}}

Another small wrinkle on that prophecy! And still another reason to say Hmmm.

Let’s see, so far we have the country of the red faces meaning [1] Tibet, [2] China, [3] Europe, and [4] America (perhaps more or less in that historical order?). I’m beginning to believe that iron birds can truly fly. Yes, even if the theory of universal gravitation might say, ‘No way.’ Already we’re somewhere over the rainbow. So perhaps *all* our faces are red or some invisible ultraviolet or infrared beyond the usual spectrum. All kinds of things can happen in this so-called universe of possibilities.

(For you all Tibetanists out there, it’s lung ma bstan, not lung bstan!)

Yours,
Dab

Funny that H.H. mentioned a Shakyashri. I’m sure you’re right that he did not mean the 12th-13th century Shakyashri, but it strikes me that it was the latter who introduced Tibet to a much later dating of the Buddha’s nirvana–544 BC (see Vogel’s article mentioned in the references above). This would of course invalidate Sönam Tsemo’s interpretation of the Khotanese prophecy as a reference to Tibet since 2,500 years after that date gives us the year 2044.

So perhaps we should be looking forward to something significant happening that date! But then again, going by the current dating of the Buddha’s nirvana to between 420 and 350 BC by modern scholars, we will have to wait still longer, till the 22nd century…

I very much recommend this new blog entry at
tibetanaltar.blogspot:

http://tinyurl.com/2lyej5

This has a parallel Hopi prophecy.

Yours,
Dab

Congratulations on the marvelous blog entry! Yes, I’ve often wondered, as have many, about the source of that “Iron bird flies” prophecy. Did it come out of thin air, or is there some real source for it?

For a rational reduction of it rather like yours (and mine, actually), see Stephen Batchelor’s recently uploaded essay here:

http://tinyurl.com/2glh5y

I do have one source that would seem to put an interesting if small wrinkle in your historical argument, however. (Well, maybe not.)

I have my own copy of the journal The Indo-Asian Culture, vol. 6, no. 1 (July 1957). The first article contains a transcription of an speech given by His Holiness the Dalai Lama in New Delhi in November 1956. It may be easier to find this speech in Shakabpa’s Tibet: A Political History, pp. 329-331. I recommend having a look at the whole speech, and puzzling over His statement: “In one of the Sutras the Lord Buddha had predicted that after 2500 years of his Parinirvana, the Dharma would flourish in the country of red-faced people. In the past some of the Tibetan scholars had held that this prediction was meant for Tibet, but one scholar, Saka Shri, has however interpreted it otherwise. According to him, the prediction refers to Europe where the Dharma may flourish hereafter and some signs of this can be observed already. If the Dharma spreads all over the world, it will undoubtedly yield good fruits for our future life, but even in our present life, hatred, exploitation of one by another and the ways and deeds of violence will disappear and the time will come when all will live in friendship in a prosperous and happy world.”

I have never seen a Tibetan-language version of this speech, although if one exists it could clarify a few things no doubt. Surely by Saka Shri, H.H. did *not* mean the 12th-13th century Shakyashri (even though He mentioned him earlier in the speech). He certainly must mean the Tibetan named Shakya Shri, often given the title Togden (Rtogs-ldan), a very well known Drugpa Kagyü and Nyingma teacher of Kham who lived from 1853-1919 CE.

Note well that H.H.’s speech makes no reference whatsoever to the “wheeled horses” or “iron bird flies” of the longer prophecy. And while He does know that gdong-dmar-can-gyi yul (red faced country) means Tibetans in most Tibetans’ minds, there is one (perhaps *only* one) who thinks it means Europe. No mention of the Americas here!

Yours,
Dab