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	<title>Comments on: Buddhism and Empire III: the Dharma King</title>
	<atom:link href="http://earlytibet.com/2008/08/21/buddhism-and-empire-iii-the-dharma-king/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://earlytibet.com/2008/08/21/buddhism-and-empire-iii-the-dharma-king/</link>
	<description>Notes, thoughts and fragments of research on the history of Tibet</description>
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		<title>By: earlytibet</title>
		<link>http://earlytibet.com/2008/08/21/buddhism-and-empire-iii-the-dharma-king/#comment-901</link>
		<dc:creator>earlytibet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Sep 2008 20:26:52 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Hi Brandon,

Nice to hear from somebody interested in Tri Song Detsen. According to my stats pages, this is just about the least popular article I&#039;ve posted - which was a surprise to me. Apparently the glamour of the tsenpos has little resonance these days.

Anyway, many thanks for the &lt;i&gt;phyva&lt;/i&gt; reference. You must be right that the divine ancestors of the tsenpos are indicated here. I also recently read Samten Karmay&#039;s article on PT1038, in which the phywa feature among the tsenpo&#039;s forebears.

By the way, I like your translation of the Chronicle!

S.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Brandon,</p>
<p>Nice to hear from somebody interested in Tri Song Detsen. According to my stats pages, this is just about the least popular article I&#8217;ve posted &#8211; which was a surprise to me. Apparently the glamour of the tsenpos has little resonance these days.</p>
<p>Anyway, many thanks for the <i>phyva</i> reference. You must be right that the divine ancestors of the tsenpos are indicated here. I also recently read Samten Karmay&#8217;s article on PT1038, in which the phywa feature among the tsenpo&#8217;s forebears.</p>
<p>By the way, I like your translation of the Chronicle!</p>
<p>S.</p>
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		<title>By: Brandon Dotson</title>
		<link>http://earlytibet.com/2008/08/21/buddhism-and-empire-iii-the-dharma-king/#comment-898</link>
		<dc:creator>Brandon Dotson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Sep 2008 10:32:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earlytibet.wordpress.com/?p=221#comment-898</guid>
		<description>Hello Sam,

Good find! I have one minor point to make at present on the translation of the interesting sentence phyva’i rgyal thabs mnga’ brnyes shing//chab srId gnam gyI lde mtshon can/

While phywa is similar to g.yang as &quot;fortune&quot;, the phywa are also the ancestral gods from which the Tibetan kings descended. In the songs of the Old Tibetan Chronicle, it is clear that the role of the king is to instantiate on earth the ways of the phywa in heaven. Indeed, the unswerving agenda of the Old Tibetan Chronicle, as a royalist document, is to aggrandize the king&#039;s role as a world-ordering principle. I think it is in this sense that one should approach the phrase phywa&#039;i rgyal thabs.

Here is a relevant passage from the song of Khri &#039;Dus srong in the Chronicle where phywa is used in the above sense.

The subject—does he subjugate the lord,
Or does the lord subjugate the subject?
Our enemies above know!

The man—does he ride the horse,
Or does the horse ride the man?
Those who instantiate the order of the Pywa Gods know (pywa &#039;I ni gtsug mkhan mkhyen) 

Do the crops cut the scythe,
Or does the scythe cut the grass?
The narrow [earth] below knows!

From now up to the edge of heaven,
The sun and moon see with their eyes,
The blue heavens hear with their ears,
The order of the Pywa [Gods] will not change (pywa &#039;I ni gtsug myi &#039;gyur ).
The feathers will not fall from the arrow.


In my opinion &quot;those who instantiate the ways of the pywa&quot; (phwa &#039;I ni gtsug mkhan) are the Tibetan kings themselves.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello Sam,</p>
<p>Good find! I have one minor point to make at present on the translation of the interesting sentence phyva’i rgyal thabs mnga’ brnyes shing//chab srId gnam gyI lde mtshon can/</p>
<p>While phywa is similar to g.yang as &#8220;fortune&#8221;, the phywa are also the ancestral gods from which the Tibetan kings descended. In the songs of the Old Tibetan Chronicle, it is clear that the role of the king is to instantiate on earth the ways of the phywa in heaven. Indeed, the unswerving agenda of the Old Tibetan Chronicle, as a royalist document, is to aggrandize the king&#8217;s role as a world-ordering principle. I think it is in this sense that one should approach the phrase phywa&#8217;i rgyal thabs.</p>
<p>Here is a relevant passage from the song of Khri &#8216;Dus srong in the Chronicle where phywa is used in the above sense.</p>
<p>The subject—does he subjugate the lord,<br />
Or does the lord subjugate the subject?<br />
Our enemies above know!</p>
<p>The man—does he ride the horse,<br />
Or does the horse ride the man?<br />
Those who instantiate the order of the Pywa Gods know (pywa &#8216;I ni gtsug mkhan mkhyen) </p>
<p>Do the crops cut the scythe,<br />
Or does the scythe cut the grass?<br />
The narrow [earth] below knows!</p>
<p>From now up to the edge of heaven,<br />
The sun and moon see with their eyes,<br />
The blue heavens hear with their ears,<br />
The order of the Pywa [Gods] will not change (pywa &#8216;I ni gtsug myi &#8216;gyur ).<br />
The feathers will not fall from the arrow.</p>
<p>In my opinion &#8220;those who instantiate the ways of the pywa&#8221; (phwa &#8216;I ni gtsug mkhan) are the Tibetan kings themselves.</p>
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		<title>By: earlytibet</title>
		<link>http://earlytibet.com/2008/08/21/buddhism-and-empire-iii-the-dharma-king/#comment-842</link>
		<dc:creator>earlytibet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Aug 2008 14:50:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earlytibet.wordpress.com/?p=221#comment-842</guid>
		<description>Yes - I do believe you may be right. If we ignore the sandhi, the Tibetan transcription of Śīlāditya could certainly be &lt;i&gt;shi la a tid tya&lt;/i&gt;, and that is required to get from there to &lt;i&gt;shI la a tI da ṇya&lt;/i&gt; (which is written on our scroll) is for the scribe to have inserted an extra tseg (dot) after &lt;i&gt;ti&lt;/i&gt; and garbled the &lt;i&gt;tya&lt;/i&gt; (actually, now I look at it, it could just about be a &lt;i&gt;tya&lt;/i&gt; rather than &lt;i&gt;ṇya&lt;/i&gt; after all).

Thank you!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes &#8211; I do believe you may be right. If we ignore the sandhi, the Tibetan transcription of Śīlāditya could certainly be <i>shi la a tid tya</i>, and that is required to get from there to <i>shI la a tI da ṇya</i> (which is written on our scroll) is for the scribe to have inserted an extra tseg (dot) after <i>ti</i> and garbled the <i>tya</i> (actually, now I look at it, it could just about be a <i>tya</i> rather than <i>ṇya</i> after all).</p>
<p>Thank you!</p>
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		<title>By: Ratna</title>
		<link>http://earlytibet.com/2008/08/21/buddhism-and-empire-iii-the-dharma-king/#comment-841</link>
		<dc:creator>Ratna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Aug 2008 14:19:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earlytibet.wordpress.com/?p=221#comment-841</guid>
		<description>I wonder if shI la a tI da ṇya could be a corruption of Śīlāditya, the name of several historical kings and I think also one of the names of Harṣa, a great patron of Buddhism?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wonder if shI la a tI da ṇya could be a corruption of Śīlāditya, the name of several historical kings and I think also one of the names of Harṣa, a great patron of Buddhism?</p>
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