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	<title>Comments for earlyTibet.com</title>
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	<link>http://earlytibet.com</link>
	<description>Notes, thoughts and fragments of research on the history of Tibet</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 09 Feb 2012 09:52:50 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>Comment on The Earliest Evidence of Bonpo Rituals? by earlytibet</title>
		<link>http://earlytibet.com/2012/01/31/the-earliest-evidence-of-bonpo-rituals/#comment-2549</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[earlytibet]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Feb 2012 09:52:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earlytibet.com/?p=1287#comment-2549</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Dear Nicolas,

Thanks for your comment. It&#039;s hard to get the nuances right in a brief blog post! A likely scenario is that Tibetan rituals with pre-Buddhist roots -- performed by people inhabiting the ritual roles of &lt;i&gt;bon po&lt;/i&gt;, &lt;i&gt;sku gshen&lt;/i&gt; and the like -- continued alongside Buddhism during and after the Tibetan imperial period. The tensions of this situation can be seen in polemical texts like the one I mentioned in &lt;a href=&quot;http://earlytibet.com/2009/08/24/buddhism-and-bon-iv/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this post&lt;/a&gt;, and in the &quot;Buddhicized&quot; funeral ritual in &lt;a href=&quot;http://otdo.aa.tufs.ac.jp/archives.cgi?p=Pt_0239&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Pelliot tibétain 239&lt;/a&gt;. One interesting aspect of the wooden dockets is that they do suggest whatever adherence to Buddhism the soldiers felt or were expected to show, it was not exclusive of participating in these sorts of rituals.

S.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear Nicolas,</p>
<p>Thanks for your comment. It&#8217;s hard to get the nuances right in a brief blog post! A likely scenario is that Tibetan rituals with pre-Buddhist roots &#8212; performed by people inhabiting the ritual roles of <i>bon po</i>, <i>sku gshen</i> and the like &#8212; continued alongside Buddhism during and after the Tibetan imperial period. The tensions of this situation can be seen in polemical texts like the one I mentioned in <a href="http://earlytibet.com/2009/08/24/buddhism-and-bon-iv/" rel="nofollow">this post</a>, and in the &#8220;Buddhicized&#8221; funeral ritual in <a href="http://otdo.aa.tufs.ac.jp/archives.cgi?p=Pt_0239" rel="nofollow">Pelliot tibétain 239</a>. One interesting aspect of the wooden dockets is that they do suggest whatever adherence to Buddhism the soldiers felt or were expected to show, it was not exclusive of participating in these sorts of rituals.</p>
<p>S.</p>
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		<title>Comment on The Earliest Evidence of Bonpo Rituals? by Nicolas</title>
		<link>http://earlytibet.com/2012/01/31/the-earliest-evidence-of-bonpo-rituals/#comment-2548</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Nicolas]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Feb 2012 08:45:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earlytibet.com/?p=1287#comment-2548</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks for the interesting post! Just a comment: the two scenarios you suggest at the end seem to be based on the implicit premise that the funeral mentioned on IOL Tib N 279 is a &quot;bon po&quot; one, and thus a &quot;non-Buddhist&quot; one. I have not tried to locate and decipher the text, and am not well versed in these early historical materials, but could it not be also that the local perceptions that inform that text were not characterized by this kind of exclusivist view of religious affiliation?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the interesting post! Just a comment: the two scenarios you suggest at the end seem to be based on the implicit premise that the funeral mentioned on IOL Tib N 279 is a &#8220;bon po&#8221; one, and thus a &#8220;non-Buddhist&#8221; one. I have not tried to locate and decipher the text, and am not well versed in these early historical materials, but could it not be also that the local perceptions that inform that text were not characterized by this kind of exclusivist view of religious affiliation?</p>
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		<title>Comment on The Earliest Evidence of Bonpo Rituals? by BD</title>
		<link>http://earlytibet.com/2012/01/31/the-earliest-evidence-of-bonpo-rituals/#comment-2546</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[BD]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Feb 2012 14:47:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earlytibet.com/?p=1287#comment-2546</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Or just search &quot;IOL Tib N&quot; and browse the slips that way.

Some of the pointy slips, like IOL Tib N 1443, are notched.

One thinks of the cutting of the record into two parts (khram gnyis bgyis in PT 1042), one for the deceased and one for the living. (Actually, one for the skyibs lug and one for the chief assistant in the funeral, or something similar.) Perhaps the record kept by the living was invested with power or had a talismanic effect. It is interesting to go back to Rona-Tas&#039; article on the tally stick in Tibetan wrathful iconography in light of these sticks from Miran.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Or just search &#8220;IOL Tib N&#8221; and browse the slips that way.</p>
<p>Some of the pointy slips, like IOL Tib N 1443, are notched.</p>
<p>One thinks of the cutting of the record into two parts (khram gnyis bgyis in PT 1042), one for the deceased and one for the living. (Actually, one for the skyibs lug and one for the chief assistant in the funeral, or something similar.) Perhaps the record kept by the living was invested with power or had a talismanic effect. It is interesting to go back to Rona-Tas&#8217; article on the tally stick in Tibetan wrathful iconography in light of these sticks from Miran.</p>
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		<title>Comment on The Earliest Evidence of Bonpo Rituals? by earlytibet</title>
		<link>http://earlytibet.com/2012/01/31/the-earliest-evidence-of-bonpo-rituals/#comment-2538</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[earlytibet]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Feb 2012 09:53:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earlytibet.com/?p=1287#comment-2538</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[If you click on &quot;Advanced Search&quot; and then go to &quot;Form&quot; you can select &quot;woodslip&quot; (as well as &quot;wood bracket&quot;, &quot;wood shavings&quot; etc.) you can also select Tibetan from the Languages/Scripts search box. Unfortunately there isn&#039;t a separate category for the four-sided sticks. By the way, an excellent introduction to the woodslips is Tsuguhito Takeuchi&#039;s article &quot;The Tibetan Military System and Its Activities from Khotan to Lop Nor&quot; in The Silk Road: Trade, Travel, War and Faith (now out of print I think but it&#039;s on Google Books, and the whole of Takeuchi&#039;s article is there).

S.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you click on &#8220;Advanced Search&#8221; and then go to &#8220;Form&#8221; you can select &#8220;woodslip&#8221; (as well as &#8220;wood bracket&#8221;, &#8220;wood shavings&#8221; etc.) you can also select Tibetan from the Languages/Scripts search box. Unfortunately there isn&#8217;t a separate category for the four-sided sticks. By the way, an excellent introduction to the woodslips is Tsuguhito Takeuchi&#8217;s article &#8220;The Tibetan Military System and Its Activities from Khotan to Lop Nor&#8221; in The Silk Road: Trade, Travel, War and Faith (now out of print I think but it&#8217;s on Google Books, and the whole of Takeuchi&#8217;s article is there).</p>
<p>S.</p>
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		<title>Comment on The Earliest Evidence of Bonpo Rituals? by Dan</title>
		<link>http://earlytibet.com/2012/01/31/the-earliest-evidence-of-bonpo-rituals/#comment-2533</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Feb 2012 15:14:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earlytibet.com/?p=1287#comment-2533</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Is there a search-category that will return only woodslips at the IDP database, or one that will return (for example) only inscribed wood that is four-sided?  I don&#039;t find anything like this in the &quot;advanced search&quot; .  The category &quot;manuscript&quot; seems way too broad, given that so much of what is in the database is covered by that term (not distinguishing the types of material that are inscribed upon, and not distinguishing the various means of inscription like ink, chisel, brush, fingernails...).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is there a search-category that will return only woodslips at the IDP database, or one that will return (for example) only inscribed wood that is four-sided?  I don&#8217;t find anything like this in the &#8220;advanced search&#8221; .  The category &#8220;manuscript&#8221; seems way too broad, given that so much of what is in the database is covered by that term (not distinguishing the types of material that are inscribed upon, and not distinguishing the various means of inscription like ink, chisel, brush, fingernails&#8230;).</p>
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		<title>Comment on Early Dzogchen IV: the role of Atiyoga by Leo Rivers</title>
		<link>http://earlytibet.com/2011/08/03/early-dzogchen-iv/#comment-2532</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Leo Rivers]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Feb 2012 14:49:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earlytibet.com/?p=1112#comment-2532</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[In effect, my statement was partially the case but standing alone, outside of the bigger picture, it could only serve to foreshorten or inflame the dialogue. My lack of background showing here.  I&#039;ll wait until the bigger picture on the unfolding of the 9 yanas out of the 11th Century era is filled in. Back to lurking.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In effect, my statement was partially the case but standing alone, outside of the bigger picture, it could only serve to foreshorten or inflame the dialogue. My lack of background showing here.  I&#8217;ll wait until the bigger picture on the unfolding of the 9 yanas out of the 11th Century era is filled in. Back to lurking.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>Comment on The Earliest Evidence of Bonpo Rituals? by earlytibet</title>
		<link>http://earlytibet.com/2012/01/31/the-earliest-evidence-of-bonpo-rituals/#comment-2530</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[earlytibet]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Feb 2012 09:56:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earlytibet.com/?p=1287#comment-2530</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Dear D,

Yes, and I think I&#039;ve seen a Central Asian version of those four-sided dice as well. And we do have Dunhuang documents on divination which line up the results of the roll of two dice, each one as rows of dots (not stacked on top of each other as in our six-sided dice). There&#039;s a very similar method found in a Turkic manuscript as well. Anyway, despite the similarity in shape, I don&#039;t see that the ritual sticks having a similar role to dice; the text just continues from one side to the next, in a continuous flow. The previous comment on the modern use of wooden sticks inscribed with the names of donors or recipients of the ritual might be closer to what we have here, as there are a couple of sticks with personal names on them.

S.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear D,</p>
<p>Yes, and I think I&#8217;ve seen a Central Asian version of those four-sided dice as well. And we do have Dunhuang documents on divination which line up the results of the roll of two dice, each one as rows of dots (not stacked on top of each other as in our six-sided dice). There&#8217;s a very similar method found in a Turkic manuscript as well. Anyway, despite the similarity in shape, I don&#8217;t see that the ritual sticks having a similar role to dice; the text just continues from one side to the next, in a continuous flow. The previous comment on the modern use of wooden sticks inscribed with the names of donors or recipients of the ritual might be closer to what we have here, as there are a couple of sticks with personal names on them.</p>
<p>S.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Early Dzogchen IV: the role of Atiyoga by earlytibet</title>
		<link>http://earlytibet.com/2011/08/03/early-dzogchen-iv/#comment-2529</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[earlytibet]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Feb 2012 09:50:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earlytibet.com/?p=1112#comment-2529</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Well they could be represented in that way, but not very usefully or accurately! That&#039;s a kind of reductive move along the lines of statements like &quot;Christianity is just a Jewish messanianic cult.&quot; Good for shock-value but not much more, I&#039;d say.

S.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well they could be represented in that way, but not very usefully or accurately! That&#8217;s a kind of reductive move along the lines of statements like &#8220;Christianity is just a Jewish messanianic cult.&#8221; Good for shock-value but not much more, I&#8217;d say.</p>
<p>S.</p>
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		<title>Comment on The Earliest Evidence of Bonpo Rituals? by Dan</title>
		<link>http://earlytibet.com/2012/01/31/the-earliest-evidence-of-bonpo-rituals/#comment-2519</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Feb 2012 10:12:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earlytibet.com/?p=1287#comment-2519</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[In India the dice for games and divination were four-sided, not six-sided.  That&#039;s why there are four world ages (yugas), they say.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In India the dice for games and divination were four-sided, not six-sided.  That&#8217;s why there are four world ages (yugas), they say.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Early Dzogchen IV: the role of Atiyoga by Leo Rivers</title>
		<link>http://earlytibet.com/2011/08/03/early-dzogchen-iv/#comment-2504</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Leo Rivers]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Feb 2012 17:23:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earlytibet.com/?p=1112#comment-2504</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Would this mean that just as trek-chod “esoteric instructions” could be represented as a side-car line lineage of view incorporated to fine-tune the completion of Mahayoga practice and clear light wisdom that thogal emerged  as a side-car line lineage of view incorporated to fine-tune the completion of Kalachakra practice and emptiness forms? This would suggest modern Dzog Chen is the union of classic Mahayoga and Kalachakra results.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Would this mean that just as trek-chod “esoteric instructions” could be represented as a side-car line lineage of view incorporated to fine-tune the completion of Mahayoga practice and clear light wisdom that thogal emerged  as a side-car line lineage of view incorporated to fine-tune the completion of Kalachakra practice and emptiness forms? This would suggest modern Dzog Chen is the union of classic Mahayoga and Kalachakra results.</p>
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